🧠 Investor Psychology Deep Dive – Investing isn’t just numbers, it’s a mental game. We explore the emotional biases, fears, and psychological traps investors face in volatile markets, with special guest and psychotherapist Zoë Ross
🐵 Taming Your Inner Chimp – Learn how to manage emotional impulses and anxiety in investment decisions, using practical insights from “The Chimp Paradox” by Steve Peters. (Monkeys are still cool, though 🍌)
📉 Navigating Market Volatility with Emotional Discipline – Discover why emotional discipline is crucial when facing uncertainty, trade wars, or market corrections, and how experienced investors turn chaos into opportunity
💡 Overcoming Cognitive Distortions – Zoe sheds light on common cognitive distortions such as “all-or-nothing” thinking, catastrophizing, and “should” statements, offering techniques to combat these investment pitfalls
😌 Mindfulness and Emotional Regulation – mindfulness practices to boost self-awareness, manage stress, and enhance decision-making, guiding investors to respond thoughtfully rather than react impulsively
⚖ Risk Management and Gender Differences – risk tolerance differences between genders, strategies for developing comfort with risk, and insights into managing loss aversion
🌴 Thank You for Supporting Wall Street Wildlife on https://www.patreon.com/wallstreetwildlife
💵 Your support helps us continue bringing insightful episodes and valuable investing wisdom
You can find more from Zoë Ross at zoeross.com.
Segments:
00:00 Introduction to Emotional Investing
02:14 Welcome to Wall Street Wildlife
03:05 Guest Introduction: Zoë Ross
04:08 Understanding Investor Psychology
07:28 The Chimp Paradox and Emotional Management
17:30 Cognitive Distortions in Investing
27:11 Mindfulness and Emotional Regulation
36:32 Exploring Emotions in Investing
38:50 Gender Differences in Risk-Taking
42:26 The Importance of a Beginner’s Mind
47:20 The Value of Starting Small
54:18 Managing Emotions and Patterns
55:33 Communicating and Aligning Values
57:57 The Benefits of Having a Plan
01:03:57 Resources for Mindful Investing
01:05:29 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
E72 PSYCHOLOGY OF INVESTING – with Ads
[00:00:00] Zoe: The chimp likes to make a bit of noise and let the emotions out. But what’s the plan here? You need to have a plan to be able to move forward.
And plans I think are really important because they help you usually for when you’re in a wise, calm mind, think about your values, think about why you’re doing something, feel like you know where you’re going. And decisions that are thought through sensibly and according to the data.
And the wise adult mind is much more, calmer, is much more responsive, and is really, can look at a long term strategy rather than getting caught up in anxiety and fear and stress and worrying, which is the, chimp brain. Biggest problem I guess though is that the chimp hates uncertainty.
And so that’s where uncertainty activates the chimp. But of course investment’s all about uncertainty to a degree.
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[00:02:14] Luke: Welcome to Wall Street Wildlife with Krzysztof and Luke. Today we are diving into the fascinating and turbulent world of investor psychology. Now we all know that investing isn’t just about crunching numbers, it’s a mental game, a battle against our own emotional biases. And let’s be honest, these emotions can wreak havoc on our portfolios.
And with right now the chaos of trade wars and actual wars, the Nasdaq index is in correction territory. And in theory, that is great news for investors. But in reality, most of us, me included, we’re in a bit of turmoil and we’re fearful our portfolios are going to fall. So with emotions riding so high right now, there has really never been a better time to remind [00:03:00] ourselves about the importance of emotional discipline.
As an investor. Now, Krzysztof, this is something you and I talk about nearly every episode, but we’re getting real serious about it this week and we are delighted to be joined by one of my close personal friends and a truly exceptional guest from right here in the beautiful ski town of Chamonix, but working with clients worldwide, Zoe Ross.
Zoe is a psychotherapist and a chartered counseling psychologist in training and also by the way, a fearless snowboarder. So she’s definitely a master of her own emotions. Zoe, welcome to Wall Street Wildlife.
[00:03:39] Zoe: Ah, thank you so much Luke. I don’t know how to live up to that introduction really, but that’s very sweet. It’s great to be here with you both.
[00:03:46] Krzysztof: He’s just happy. He doesn’t have to talk to just me this week.
[00:03:51] Luke: We got a marriage counselor on the show with us, Krzysztof. Perfect.
[00:03:56] Zoe: No, I don’t do couples therapy. [00:04:00] Yeah,
[00:04:01] Luke: some. He’s been beating me up about my SpaceX investment. Zoe, we are, thrilled to have you on the show. And I know you spent years helping people how to understand and manage their own emotions in a clinical setting. So today we’re going to explore how some of those same principles apply to the world of investing.
We’re going to tackle everything from the chimp paradox and the emotional rollercoaster of market volatility to practical tools like self regulation and mindfulness. We’ll explore why risk tolerance seems to differ between men and women and how everybody can improve their ability to take on. good risk, not bad risk.
we’ll talk about how to manage the fear of missing out and also build the mental resilience and emotional intelligence needed for long term investing success. So whether you’re a seasoned investor or just starting out, Get ready to gain some invaluable insights into the psychology of investing.
I’m looking forward to [00:05:00] getting stuck in, but before we do Zoe, can you just tell our listeners a little bit about you?
[00:05:04] Zoe: course. so have a private practice and usually in my private practice, I work with pretty high functioning, successful. Full professionals, who’ve had some kind of relational trauma usually in their lives. So they’re looking to deal with that so they can move past it and continue to really thrive in their life, whatever that looks like to them.
And I also work in an NHS referral service for more serious complex trauma. So lots of my work is around, helping people to develop more, emotional awareness, emotional management skills, and yeah, really be able to look at. working on living in line with their values and taking action that, that means that they can build a rich and fulfilled, fulfilling life.
And personally, I use a lot of positive psychology in my work. So that’s all about how to thrive in life or in my life actually, rather than just my work. So yeah, hence why we are here in the mountains [00:06:00] and snowboarding. I think that’s probably all you need to know for the moment.
[00:06:06] Luke: we are here having a lot of fun. You and I met, doing like a very scary activity, skiing the Vallée Blanche back in January, and we became firm friends pretty quickly. and like the emotions of the real world do translate into the investing world. you might be sat looking at your keyboard and you’re like the graphs on your screen rather than like staring down a super steep mountain slope. But, but definitely, it can get the heart beating and as an investor. Your emotions can be very dangerous like first off. This is something you and I talk about a lot on this show.
[00:06:44] Krzysztof: Yes. And, I would say what expert investors do that beginners don’t do. Is they look at the crazy chaos and volatility as an opportunity rather than as [00:07:00] something to fear and run away from or be inundated by. But to do that requires a significant shift and reframing of what volatility means.
[00:07:16] Luke: what are we bringing onto some, some authentic, clinical practice and clinical methodology rather than you and I kind of making this stuff up as we’ve Gone along over the last couple of years, Krzysztof. So Zoe, as a psychologist, maybe just give us a bit of grounding. What are some of the most common emotional challenges that us humans face?
And do you have a view on how they might compare to the challenges investors might face?
[00:07:42] Zoe: yes, I think where you started was a good one because you’ve reminded me of how scared I was, standing on the arete, going at the top of the Vallée Blanche and walking along there. I’m feeling quite a lot of anxiety, right? [00:08:00] So anxiety, fear is a very common emotional response. It’s something that we all feel to one degree or another, and emotions are really an important part of being human.
So they’re our reactions to what thing, what’s happening in our lives, and they can have a big impact on how we experience our lives. So if we can manage our emotions, so on that day up there, you helped me definitely to manage mine, right? And then obviously you would hope that I have some tools to be able to do that myself.
you can then have the experience of skiing the Ballet Blanche, which is what, the longest off piste in the world? Which was amazing, right? We had an amazing day. But, they could have got the better of me. That fear and anxiety could have got the better of me. So whether you are doing that, or whether you are maybe taking some steps to invest for the first time, there’s a level of, fear, anxiety, stress, whatever you want to call it, that I would imagine comes up for people listening to your podcast as well.
[00:08:59] Luke: And I suppose [00:09:00] fear is one big emotion, but also in some ways like greed and like the other side of the emotional spectrum can be just as dangerous as an investor.
[00:09:09] Zoe: Yeah, definitely. So there’s a broad range of emotions and I think we’re going to break out that my favorite feelings wheel at some point. some emotions are a lot easier to feel than others. So for example, joy and optimism, right? Joy and optimism are easier for any of us to feel than, say, fear or embarrassment and nervousness.
But they’re all just emotions and greed. is also an emotion, but that can get, that can be linked very closely to fear because how, why do we feel greed? Why do we want to follow that drive to get more, which is what greed is all about essentially. And that can often be driven by something like fear. So fear of not having enough, fear of lack, fear of scarcity, fear that something’s going to be taken away or somebody’s better than us.
[00:10:00] So then we can start to, have that, greed drive. kick in. So if that gets out of control, then that I would imagine is when it can be a real problem. But it can come from other things as well, like competitiveness, envy, wanting to emulate what others have, particularly around materialistic, possessions, wanting a quick fix, wanting to make money quickly, I would imagine in your world.
[00:10:24] Krzysztof: backtrack for a second and ask you something about anxiety? you’re framing of it. I don’t know if Luke told you, but, I have a side hobby writing about philosophy called fire philosophy, how to live. And I was just yesterday reading some, work, by Heidegger, who speaks directly about what he thinks anxiety is and he, calls it.
He says something like it’s an oppressive mood. that comes from the way it prevents us from being [00:11:00] absorbed in some activity. So instead of doing what we were born to do, somehow we’re outside. We’ve, anxiety takes us out and we spend all this energy Kind of doing this thing instead of just being, how does that map up with, how you think about it?
[00:11:25] Zoe: absolutely. So some, some level of anxiety is quite common. It’s quite natural and normal. So when, whenever we’re stepping outside our comfort zone or we’re trying to do something different, we’re going to feel a bit of fear, so the threat, whenever we’re feeling some kind of threat, that’s where anxiety comes from.
And it’s a very activating emotion. So we all know that feeling. We can feel it in our bodies, usually, in our stomachs, or, our, our breathing kind of comes up here. It’s very primal feeling. And it’s all to do with the threat system. So absolutely. We are on high alert. [00:12:00] The amygdala.
gets activated. So primal system down in the brainstem, the amygdala gets activated and we start to feel on high alert for what is the threat. And it depends on that level of threat as to how much we’ll be able to stay in the present moment. So if the threat passes very quickly, if it’s not something that we need to really worry about, we might just look up.
Oh, it’s fine. And then we can come back to the present moment and we can be, but if that’s something that really is, whether that’s an enduring threat or it’s something that is extremely serious, then it really, we might have to really struggle to stay in the present moment. So again, speaking personally, when you’re walking along the arete of the the valet blanche, it’s really, I don’t even know how to describe it, there’s, you’re walking along a very small, pathway roped up to strangers, soon to be friends, but there’s very, steep drops either side of you, so you need to stay [00:13:00] in the present moment.
because you need to be able to manage that and go step, But your anxiety is trying to get you to run them back and take the lift back down again. so some people would be able to manage that and some people wouldn’t and that it depends on. Your level of, skiing, actually, how comfortable you are in that situation as to whether manage it or not, and also how you feel about heights, etc.
So I veered off a little bit, but does that answer your question a bit, Krzysztof
[00:13:32] Luke: And I guess like anything, with practice and develop a skill set and you become used to the fear and ideally we want to get our place ourselves to the place where we’re the kind of master of our fear, but maybe before we go there and start talking about some of the tools and the methodology like what’s actually going on.
Inside our heads. I know book that you and I were chatting about by a chap called Steve Peters that explains in [00:14:00] interesting terms, the different modes of thinking. Could you explain that for us for our
[00:14:04] Zoe: Yes, Steve Peters is a, really fantastic, scientist. Chiatrist, he’s the psychiatrist in the UK, so he’s worked a lot with athletes. And he wrote The Chimp Paradox, which a lot of people have read a few years ago, and he’s got a really fantastic new book out called A Path Through the Jungle. So it’s still the same kind of, the same model.
So he’s created a model that works very well, and is quite easy to explain for, he works a lot with organizations, but I think it’s applicable to a lot of us really. And he talks about the chimp brain. So the chimp brain is an emotional, impulsive, reactive part that we all have, right? So there’s a chimp brain and that’s very much, Emotion focused, but then you’ve got the human part of the brain, which is wiser and thinks longer term.
So I would imagine in terms of. Investment, the chimp is the one that you really need to manage because that’s the one that [00:15:00] would be, getting panicky. That’s the one that is wanting to do like short term things and make things happen right now. I’m very, impulsive and reactive. Whereas actually you want to be able to bring on board the human mind or in, in other modes, we would call it the wise adult mind.
And the wise adult mind is much more, is much calmer, is much more responsive, and is really, can look at a long term strategy rather than getting caught up in anxiety and fear and stress and worrying, which is the, is the chimp brain. Biggest problem I guess though is that the chimp hates uncertainty.
And so that’s where uncertainty activates the chimp. But of course investment’s all about uncertainty to a degree. So the more you can manage your chimp or your emotion based mind, the better. I would imagine.
[00:15:53] Krzysztof: how, insulted should I be?
to 10, [00:16:00] hit me with a number,
[00:16:01] Luke: crystal. I, heard I hope because Zoe on the podcast, Christoph is the monkey pie
Karski and I’m blue. what I clearly heard there is The wise human bradger, brain needs to manage this impulsive monkey uncontrolled.
[00:16:20] Krzysztof: he’s doing all the time is just managing me.
[00:16:24] Zoe: ha ha Except you’re a Zen monkey, right? So you throw out, you throw all that theory out of the window. Yeah, but, it’s, a really, I mean I would advise anyone, I think it’s a great book for us all to read to be honest. Yeah, it’s really a really interesting model that simplifies he uses neuroscience and it’s really simplifies all the neuroscience into something that we can all relate to.
And certainly his new book, navigate helps you to navigate lots of different life experiences. , and help it’s all based on trying to develop resilience and robustness, , managing fear, managing stress, et cetera, which I think we can all benefit [00:17:00] from, right?
[00:17:00] Luke: So maybe if we now start to turn the conversation into thinking about the things that impact us and how we can start to do something about that, and maybe you can bring a bit of science to. Some of the nonsense that Krzysztof and I have been spouting over the last couple of years. We’re all familiar with cognitive biases, and I wonder if you could bring a couple of those to life, particularly that investors should be aware of, and how they might drive our chimp, our emotional responses.
[00:17:30] Zoe: So what might be helpful to talk about is something called cognitive distortions that we come across a lot. So if you’ve come across cognitive behavioral therapy, CBT, then, Cognitive Distortions are a core part of that. So the idea being that we all have thoughts. We all are aware of that. We all have thoughts, but that we can very quickly, , have thought patterns that are unhelpful and that can veer into they’re quite normal, but if we allow them to, if we don’t [00:18:00] notice them and we allow them to grow, then they can lead to some difficult feelings and problematic behaviors and can lead to some clinical issues like anxiety and depression.
They often appear in clinical practice. But ones that might be particularly relevant to investment are, all or nothing thinking. So thinking, very black and white thinking, all or nothing thinking. So for example, everything always goes wrong for me. so it’s either all good, Or it’s all bad.
And of course, the reality is that there’s all this kind of colorful bit in the middle, usually, or catastrophizing. So only seeing the worst in the situation. So at the moment, if everything is quite volatile, then we have a negativity bias in the brain. And we will look for the negative. So we’re looking for the negative stuff and then we’re focusing on the negative stuff.
And then it’s all getting a bit catastrophic and it’s a very worst situation. And oh my God, it’s all going to go horrendously wrong. And I’m going to lose everything. [00:19:00] And that’s when that feeds into panic. And that’s when that feeds into, that can really affect how we feel. And then the other one might be should statements, I should have, done that.
I should have not listened to this person. I should have listened to this person. And we can really, get caught up in that. And that of course leads to really difficult feelings, difficult, problematic behaviors, which we can all be prone to. But if they stick around, then we’re in trouble. Is that relevant for your,
[00:19:29] Luke: Yeah, absolutely. I’m really relevant right now.
we’re really interesting conversation on our Patreon just the last 24 hours because markets are all over the place. And, I think one of our Patreons was, in that kind of catastrophizing mode and fearful that he’d made like some bad decisions.
Things were looking great up until a few months ago. And now it all seems to be going to shit. And, a response I gave last night on the Patreon was like, if you’re a newer [00:20:00] investor and this is your first, potential bear market, we don’t want to, if we’re going into a bear market, maybe things will be rosy later today, even because we’re going to get some announcements from the Fed.
If this is your first bear market, like you’re entitled to be terrified and fearful. And if it’s the second time round. You’re probably going to feel the pain of it still. I don’t know about you, Krzysztof, this is like my third or fourth merry go round. And like now I look forward to these points in the market because this is actually where you really make your long term return by making wise decisions and responding to what’s happening in the market, not reacting and letting the chimp take over.
[00:20:41] Krzysztof: if I may add to that badger. That’s exactly right. That’s what I was alluding to earlier that an experienced investor, because they’ve been around the block many times when volatility arrives, they look forward to it because they see it as the natural process [00:21:00] in the market, which is always cyclical. And obviously it helps if you have a whole wheelbarrow full of cash on the side, that you could actually take advantage of it. But even if you don’t, then this is where I hate to drag in the world’s greatest cliché of all time, but it’s a cliché for, a good reason. And I think it’s that patience is the greatest virtue.
In this case, I think it’s something to do with when volatility arrives, you can either take advantage of it, as you were saying, or Right? It’s something you look forward to, or you could draw on, if you’ve cultivated it over a lifetime of practice, draw on the patience that, grounds you, helps ground you, and prevents you from doing impulsive, reactive things.
without patience or without this capacity to see in the long term for years where these kinds of fluctuations are [00:22:00] merely blips, you will get eaten alive. sorry to say the obvious, again, to say the obvious, I’d be more patient, but, it’s so
[00:22:10] Zoe: But there’s something about listening to you saying that, that is coming from a very calm, wise So you can tell that you’ve been there before. You can tell that you know what you’re talking about. You’re just like, be patient, be calm. There’s something there that feels quite zen about that, as opposed to the panic of, Oh my God, what’s happening here?
Hold on tight. and that’s a very different feeling. And you can, we’ve, we’ve all been in both those places. if we’re lucky, we’ve been in the calm place. But that’s experience, that’s wisdom, that’s knowing how to handle it. And that’s where it’s so helpful for people to have more experience.
investors who can give them that advice, and who can help them to [00:23:00] manage some of those, cognitive distortions, or even cognitive biases, where, for example, confirmation bias, where people are looking for confirmation of how they feel. So if you’re looking, if you’re looking at confirmation of it’s okay.
Be patient. This has happened before. You’re going to be in a very, different place than if you’re looking for confirmation of, Oh my God, panic, this is terrible. I’m going to lose everything. So it’s really, yeah, it’s really important that, that people have. wise elders to, to give them some sage advice.
[00:23:38] Krzysztof: and right. And as Badger was saying, one, it is. experience. It’s born of experience of time in the market. And for us, it’s like decades. But if you’re at the beginning, you can’t have it because time just need more of it. But I think the other thing is when I hear something like patience, like being more patience, fine.
Sure. It sounds great, [00:24:00] but you actually have to practice it. You have to cultivate it. It doesn’t just fall from the tree somewhere. And I imagine this is what you help people do in your practice. Like, how does one practice being more patient? What are the most skillful tools we can give people?
Because if it were easy, we’d all be, flourishing, eating bananas all day.
[00:24:24] Zoe: Yeah, it’s a really, it’s a really good question. And do you know, I don’t know that I’ve ever actually helped somebody specifically to cultivate patience as a. But what I think that happens, and I think it happens naturally because people who are very anxious are very activated. And there’s an urgency about it, like something has to happen and it has to happen now.
And that’s the opposite of what we’re talking about. So when you are regulated, when you’re able to manage your emotions, you naturally calm everything down. So you’re Sympathetic, your [00:25:00] parasympathetic, so when we’re anxious, our sympathetic nervous system is being activated. So that’s why you can feel it in your entire body.
It’s a very activating emotion. it makes you want to go for a run quite often, or we’re very busy and we’re doing lots of things. It’s a whole body experience. Whereas actually when our para sympathetic nervous system is activated. So you think of a parachute, then we are much calmer in the body and mind.
We’re much more in that place where we’re able to be patient, think there’s no rush here. I’ve got time. I can, there’s not that same sense of urgency and it has to happen right now. So it’s about regulation. And the more we’re doing that over and over again, then we are cultivating that ability to be aware of.
ourselves and to be aware of what’s happening in our mind and body. and that naturally, I think, contributes to patient, to things like self discipline, self awareness, self management, [00:26:00] patience. cause we’re able to look more in a long term perspective, but I that’s a challenge for you, right?
[00:26:05] Luke: disciplines apply just as much. If you’re worried, you’re going to miss out. So I’ve had a number of folk on the Patreon and on social media saying it’s time by the dip. It’s time to buy, my stocks are down. if you’ve seen this story before. Things could get way, worse before they get better.
This, we could be going into a period of multiple years potentially of, recession maybe, or stagnation. And we’ve seen in the last, frankly, two or three months could just be the start. And so your comments on being self aware and self managing, I think are really relevant when that kind of FOMO.
starts to hit an investor because that can be an equally dangerous emotion to feel.
[00:26:51] Zoe: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, anything that cultivates self awareness and self regulation, is really important for any of [00:27:00] us, right? But that in therapy, that’s what we’re often trying to help people with. Because if you’re aware of something, that’s the first step to them being able to manage it or change it or whatever, for whatever that is.
So if you are, If you’re able to notice, so we often talk about like notice, just notice your thoughts, notice what’s happening, what are you feeling, notice what’s happening in your body. And the more you can notice, the more you can manage it. So if it is that fear of missing out, I’ve got these thoughts, I have to do something and I have to do it now.
And I’m reading all this information that’s telling me that’s confirming that This is going to be terrible and I have to do it now. Then if you just become more aware of that and mindfulness, this is mindfulness in its purest form. So we talk about mindfulness, just being aware of what’s happening without judgment.
So in the present moment, what am I noticing? And that is essentially what mindfulness is. So just present moment awareness without judgment. So we can be aware of our thoughts, [00:28:00] our feelings, our body sensations, our urges, and all those that’s really, relevant for, for your listeners too, I think really.
So if they’re having thoughts of I’m missing out. I need to sell. I need to sell it now. Obviously, there’s a lot of other things that are coming into to play there as to whether they do need to do that. But ideally, if there’s some kind of long term plan, or they’ve got values, that they are, Focusing on so that they’re not getting carried away, particularly like social media massively feeds into FOMO, a sense of lack, a sense of scarcity, what you’re focusing on when you don’t have rather than what you do have, that really, for any of us that can really contribute to FOMO along with, MV that we’ve touched on before as well.
[00:28:47] Krzysztof: Zoe, going back to this concept of practice, how do you make, this happen? I do want to, , pipe up and say that in the world of Zen [00:29:00] Buddhism. And here we could bracket out it as a religion, but you could think of it, for our purposes as something anybody can do without any preconceived notions.
What you’re literally doing, the core of the practice is sitting and facing a blank wall, usually, while you remain in, while you keep your body upright and still. And if you do that for hours and hours, You end up training your body literally to not move think of like in an hour or two You’re gonna think everything’s itching and you have this temptation to scratch this But you don’t because you’re training yourself not to and then the blank wall is the thing that you realize Because, there’s nothing there.
But then all of these thoughts are happening and you start dreaming of purple unicorns with glitter. And, you, [00:30:00] and it becomes very, clear what your mind is doing. That’s so many projections. So it is a kind of thing I would say requires. physical practice. That’s something I think people, when they talk about mindfulness, they don’t, they, I think, cause it’s in the name it’s, it points you like it’s something you should be doing with your mind.
And obviously it is a, it’s not that your mind is not involved, but it’s the body that needs to practice staying stable. And that affects things.
[00:30:36] Zoe: Yeah, so there’s so many different ways you can do it and in different modes. I’ve practiced mindfulness and meditation for many years, and I’d still struggle to do what you’re describing that I may be a lightweight compared to that. But I think we can all get better.
we can, there’s a spectrum there that we can all be working [00:31:00] on. But you’re absolutely spot on about the mind and body connection is so important in all of this. So in my clinical work, a big part of that, as I mentioned before, is about emotions and all emotions come with a body sensation. And so often people get really removed from that.
So we call it dissociated. So they get completely dissociated from what emotions they’re feeling and where they’re feeling it in their body. So a practice that we often do is just, noticing what you’re feeling and noticing where you feel that in your body. for example, anxiety, you often, people will feel it in their stomach, or they’ll feel it in their chest, or there’ll be tension temples, or in their jaw, there’s a bit of stress there.
And we can all just get better at that. And there’s a, you can just check in with yourself, you don’t have to do anything formal, or there’s tools like Headspace is a really good kind of learning, mindfulness, basic, way of doing it. But there’s a lot of [00:32:00] misconceptions about mindfulness. There’s a, lot of different things and on its basic form, it’s just really noticing right now what’s happening for me.
[00:32:09] Luke: We had a really interesting discussion on the chairlift yesterday about this, where you were describing, trying to define the feeling in some way, give it a shape, give it a
color, your
[00:32:21] Zoe: want to now, Luke? Are you feeling brave?
[00:32:24] Luke: you sure? I
[00:32:27] Zoe: okay, let’s do a little practice together. So this is what I would do and this is what I do in my clinical practice, but it’s also what I would do personally as well if I was starting to feel a bit of something and I’m not really sure because we all feel things, right?
if we’re lucky. So if you notice your feet on the floor, if you can feel your feet on the floor and just just get that bit of a steady base. So sometimes I think of this like a tree. So these are the roots of the tree and it’s giving you that grounding base. And then as you come up your, legs and your, your back, you can imagine like stacking [00:33:00] your vertebrae of your back and that’s like the trunk of the tree, right?
So this is, trees can withhold, withstand, sorry, lots of, weather. so lots of weather comes their way but they’ve got this mostly got this steady solid base and that’s what we’re creating with the body and by doing that we end opening up the chest and that gives us more space for our breath and the breath is really cool for any , most mindfulness or, regulation practices, cause it helps to engage our vagus parasympathetic nervous system and just calm us generally.
So then we can just start to slow down the breath a little bit. So you can start to notice like, where can you notice your breath? So some people notice it through their nose, their mouth, their chest. It doesn’t really matter, but where can you notice it? And then just slow down a little bit.
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[00:36:32] Luke: feel rooted. I can feel my breath in my nose. I’m feeling, excitement because we’re having an interesting conversation. I
[00:36:38] Zoe: Okay. So notice that excitement. So where can you feel it in your body? Can you anywhere
[00:36:44] Luke: here in my chest,
[00:36:47] Zoe: great. So where does it start and where does it finish, that feeling,
[00:36:51] Luke: or that I feel like it’s here and it wants to be out here somewhere. It wants to be bigger,
[00:36:57] Zoe: Brilliant. Okay, so what kind of shape [00:37:00] is it?
[00:37:00] Luke: rectangular.
[00:37:03] Zoe: Rectangular. Okay, and how, is it moving or is it still?
[00:37:09] Luke: it’s like pounding and trying to say, you want to swear some more Luke and you want to get more on the podcast.
[00:37:15] Zoe: Okay, great. So it’s coming with some thoughts as well. Yeah, so it’s like pounding out. Is it got a colour to it?
[00:37:21] Luke: Orange.
[00:37:22] Zoe: Orange. Okay, so it’s orange, it’s pounding, like a rectangle. If it had a temperature, what temperature would it have?
[00:37:29] Luke: Oh, it would be very hot,
[00:37:31] Zoe: Okay, and
[00:37:33] Luke: Yeah.
[00:37:35] Zoe: Okay, fantastic. So this is quite, how does, how do you feel about this feeling, having done that?
[00:37:42] Luke: yeah, like I feel like I understand it a bit better having talked about it. Maybe it was just there and now I’m much more consciously aware of it.
[00:37:49] Zoe: Yeah, you’re aware of it. And obviously that’s excitement, right? So that’s a very different feeling to, for example, being stressed or anxious or overwhelmed, but it’s exactly the same kind of practice. [00:38:00] You’re just noticing it, so you become the observer. You’re the observer self, we’re strengthening that observer self, but you’re observing your emotions, you’re observing your thoughts, you’re observing that feeling and body sensation.
And that’s the basis of a lot of practice that we do. And you can, if you do that over and over again, you’re well on your way to becoming a master of your internal experience. Thank you for being willing to do that with me.
[00:38:27] Krzysztof: He’s not just a badger, he’s a guinea pig.
[00:38:29] Luke: Yes,
[00:38:30] Zoe: I appreciate
[00:38:34] Luke: is
it
[00:38:35] Zoe: Excitable guinea pig.
[00:38:36] Luke: I, I say often to friends. I said to Zoe the other day, I’m this kind of unemotional badger. Like I’m such a master of my own emotions. I don’t think I even really feel them. And maybe that’s like a more of a. Somewhat more of a male character type or more common in men. And I do wonder if we take a bit [00:39:00] of a pivot in the conversation and if we think about investing character types, like if I look at our statistics for the podcast, we’re like 95 or more percent male listeners that we wanna foster our female listenership. And we’ve definitely got like a number of.
lady Patreons, so we welcome our female jungle cats and unicorns and all the other animals in our investing jungle. Why is it, do you think that investors typically do tend to be male?
[00:39:33] Krzysztof: And Badger, if I may add one additional, context to this piece, since we’re both poker players, we know this the same thing, obviously in the world of poker. so I think there’s analogous, I. I always wonder about this question repeatedly because based on some maybe cliches or stereotypes, it almost seems I would expect the opposite, [00:40:00] because if I think of some classically female stereotypes of being more in tune with your emotions and more aware of, like interconnectivity, then you would think those skills would help rather than hinder something like investing.
yeah, so curious about your perspective on this,
[00:40:21] Zoe: think it comes down to loss aversion and risk, really. So men, there’s a large body of evidence that shows that men are more likely to undertake risky behaviours in general than women. So whether that’s, skydiving or investing or riding motorcycles or whatever, men are generally more likely to, take risk.
And there’s probably a few reasons for that from, evolution and also from how we’re socialized. There was a large study in, from the University of Bath in 2023, which was focused on risk [00:41:00] behaviors around investing, and it showed that women were far less financially optimistic and more inclined to feel stronger loss aversion than men.
So that meant that they were much more less likely to take risks. So they were much more worried about losing things, than men or losing their, investments than men and financially much less optimistic. So that’s really interesting paper, to have a look at, but generally there’s just this higher tolerance of risk.
[00:41:29] Luke: Risk is an interesting term because there, there is good and bad risk. if you take a bit like there’s good and bad debt, taking on, A loan a mortgage to buy a house is good debt because you’re ultimately you’re buying an asset and you have to have somewhere to live. So you’re, mitigating rent.
And that may appreciate over time. But there’s also like bad debt. if taking a loan from a loan shark and then going to the casino with it or doing something insane and, [00:42:00] and risk is the same. You can have. A bad risk where you may be, maybe you’re about to walk down the arete of the Valais Blanche and you’re not roped up to anybody else and the wind’s howling and, it’s just a, a day when you shouldn’t be there, but there can be good risk as well that helps you grow and gain experience when you try and do things a bit safely.
whether. Your male or female, are there any tools that if we think about investing in particular tools that we can use to maybe develop our willingness to take on more risk
[00:42:37] Zoe: Yes, it’s a really interesting point. And there’s a classic kind of self help book from the 70s, which is still one of my favourites, which is Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway. And that’s all about this idea of just building up gradually your tolerance to being outside your comfort zone and taking risks in small ways.
And I think that’s a very good way to become more comfortable with risk. [00:43:00] Cause at each time you’re having to manage and surf the wave of anxiety that will inevitably come up. So it’s a bit, it would be exposure therapy in a clinical setting. So for example, if someone was terrified of swimming, you wouldn’t just take them and chuck them in the deep end.
I know they used to do that in the 70s. We don’t do that anymore. what we would do is maybe just sit next to them, next to a pool with them and just wait for that first wave of anxiety to pass and for them to recognize it’s okay, I’m safe. Oh, and I’ve managed that. Oh, and now that feels quite good.
And then we might move a little bit closer. And before you know it, we’re dipping a foot in. And then that, and then we might have to go back a bit and then we might have to go forward a bit. but each time we’re moving further towards our goal and we have a clear plan and we are managing the risk and the anxiety that comes with being outside the comfort zone.
So in an investing context, I would [00:44:00] imagine, and please do correct me if I’m wrong, it would be about like starting small and building up and having a risk that feels manageable. and is maybe outside your comfort zone, but is well thought through, and feel, and then, once you’ve got that under your belt, then building up in a small way from that.
And I think the other concept that’s really helpful here is again a Zen Buddhist concept of beginner’s mind. So this idea that if you start somewhere accepting you’re a beginner, so I used to, be a skier and I’m now probably a snowboarder, but when I started snowboarding I went back to being a beginner.
But I really enjoyed this concept of having a beginner’s mind and learning again, being a learner again, and having that attitude of like openness, eagerness, lack of preconceptions, which is a beginner’s mind, so you’re open to learning. And again, that’s where having people who will. guide you along the way.
So in snowboarding, having good instructors [00:45:00] that you trust in your world, having good advice that really helps you to make those little steps that then mean that you get a long way quite quickly usually.
[00:45:11] Krzysztof: Because the flip side to the beginner is the expert. And in this context, the expert Is somebody who by almost by definition, what makes them an expert is that they see things through a very, narrow lens and it makes you more rigid in that sense because you, the things that make you an expert, you can’t, you’re filtering out so much other stuff and as we know in investing, uncertainty, doubt, things change all the time.
So that expert mind is a little bit less flexible and that’s why cultivating this openness is [00:46:00] so this quality I think you’re talking about learning and being a beginner in the paradox, though, of course, is that you could be an expert. While still allowing yourself to continue to be a beginner and to continue to learn that’s the top level that you’re not naive.
It’s not like you don’t know anything, but you do know a lot, but you still haven’t calcified yourself
[00:46:28] Zoe: Yeah, I think that’s a really lovely way of putting it. And I think as you, you do, as you become more, more of an expert in anything, what’s important and what’s not, you can filter out the noise. and you can stay quite steady in what you know to be true, but having that open mind to still learning.
So there’s a psychiatrist called Paul Conti who calls that the generative drive. So the generative drive is this drive to keep on growing, keep on learning. And that [00:47:00] is something that a lot of very successful people have. They want to know more. Although they are an expert, they’re still looking for ways to develop and to learn and to grow.
[00:47:11] Krzysztof: badger. I want to toss an idea your way as a kind of thought experiment. Remember our investing for B for. Parents and children episode if you haven’t yeah, if you haven’t heard that episode, by the way Dear audience and listeners go back because we think it’s one of the best things we’ve recorded But I think one of the things we were talking about there is it’s better to just get started And it doesn’t really matter the amount, but develop the habit.
And I think that applies a little bit here, like instead of thinking of investing as you need 10, 000 or, 100, 000 or whatever number that stands in for big, what if you took some amount of money that [00:48:00] still represents something? It can’t be nothing. It can’t be five dollars because your mind would know five dollars isn’t really real or big enough.
? But what would happen if you took some amount that represents something legit and you opened up your portfolio and Zoe, like you were saying, you practice with that. So that even if it went to zero, nothing, your life doesn’t blow up, but you at least start , this journey. Is that something bad you think is like a, is something we could recommend as a step one into this.
[00:48:38] Luke: wholeheartedly and, reflecting back on some that we said earlier in the conversation, you are a beginner when you start and you gain experience and then when it is your 20th year as an investor, you seen it all before. It’s a bit maybe reflect on poker as well, like you can’t play the game of poker [00:49:00] unless there is something at risk.
Otherwise, it’s just oh, you show me your cards, I’ll show you mine. And we see the biggest hand. And then we do them out again. It’s meaningless. We’re just there to socialize. and you’ve got to feel. The emotions. And if you’ve made a mistake, you’ve got to feel the pain because that pain is the thing that teaches you.
And so if you can get that journey started as soon as possible, like we say, the best time to start investing was 20 years ago. The second best time is today. If you get started today with a small but meaningful amount of money. And if you suffer through this downturn that’s coming, you’re going to learn such valuable lessons about not just like the mechanics of investing or why a particular stock may be underperformed, but also your emotional response to that so you can grow and then later when the money is more material, you’ve made, maybe you’ve made those mistakes and you’ve learned those lessons [00:50:00] when it didn’t matter so much and you recovered or you’ve maybe had some success.
And you’ve got some grounding to build on. As the money becomes more important.
[00:50:09] Zoe: And you’re reminding me there of Atomic Habits. I don’t know if you’ve read it. I think I’ve got it. I have got it here. The James Clear book. I don’t know if you’ve read it. It’s good, right? it’s an interesting book to, and it just builds on that kind of, firmly based in science, but builds on those kinds of strategies with small habits, building small, good habits gradually over time, and just adding to them.
in ways that work for you. And you can apply that to lots of different domains of your life. But that breeds self discipline. It breeds this sense of, self efficacy, of knowing that you can do things and you can have self control. You’ve got this sense of agency, of knowing that you can make things happen.
So definitely in terms of investing what you’re talking about, but you can [00:51:00] apply it to lots of other areas of your life. as well, just building on little things gradually. And it, helps tremendously over time.
[00:51:08] Krzysztof: So here’s the most practical way of condensing a lot of, I think what we just said, if you’re listening to the show right now, and you’re not an investor, pause, just pause will be step one. Consider whether it might be meaningful for you in your life to over time have more money or what, or whether you’ve, you have plenty, so you don’t need to worry about that.
But if you do, then It’s so easy to open up a brokerage. It’s easier than ever before. Consider what amount of money would represent the sweet spot of small, but meaningful enough, and then deposit that money, open up the account, and then listen to our [00:52:00] show every single week, because we’re guides and you ask us questions, hop on our Patreon, join our community.
And all of a sudden you have all the tools to start your journey. On a lifelong wealth building Enterprise, it’s almost and what am I missing badger?
[00:52:18] Luke: No, you’ve got it. We, and we said it before, right? It’s good to have, it’s good to go on this journey with a buddy, whether it’s like a personal friend and you’re both co investing. And that’s what I did 20 something years ago with my friend Albert. Now we both found we had a passion for this topic and we found it as an interesting way.
To try and understand the world and think about the future. So we just started sharing ideas and we’re both kind of investing in parallel. We turned it into a bit of a game. And, it’s now turned into both of us essentially semi retiring. If you don’t have a buddy who’s got that same kind of niche interest, there’s still ways.
Become part of this community. There’s a whole bunch of podcasts [00:53:00] out there. I happen to like our one. I think we do a pretty good job of trying to be authentic and give, not just the pump and dump and the meme stock rubbish that you’re going to find everywhere. We try and share. Like our combined 45 something years of wisdom and draw out lessons.
And then yeah, go find us on Twitter, go find us on the Patreon and have those conversations. we’ve in prep for today’s conversation with Zoe, I posted a question to the Patreon to say, we’ve got to. Chartered clinical psychologist coming on to chat about emotions as an investor, share some questions, share some of your thoughts, and we’ll, we’ll try and get Zoe to a pine on them.
if I could, maybe I can just pop in and raise a couple of those because they do raise interesting points. Our Patreon Sam said one of his biggest issues is. Feeling he’s not deploying all of his cash at the first sign of a market downturn and remaining patient. And he feels like he needs to have a [00:54:00] habit or he has a habit currently of rushing in after a small drop and then not having much left over if it gets bad.
that’s that, the FOMO. Or, things are on sale. actually they may not be on sale yet. They might really be on sale in a six months or a year’s time.
[00:54:18] Zoe: what’s really good here though, for Sam to notice he’s, noticing his habit, right? He’s noticing his behavior and his urges. And that’s the first thing he’s noticing that pattern. So there’s a real parallel between our work, right? Because you’ve got to look for patterns. So we all have patterns in our behaviors and we also have patterns, there’s patterns in the market.
So that’s the really good thing to notice and not to throw that out is he’s becoming more aware of his patterns and that will stand in for really good stead. later down the line. So because he’ll, once you’re aware of it, he’ll be able to notice, do I want to keep this rushing in or do I want to change it?
And how do I want to change it? What would be more useful? And that’s where your [00:55:00] expertise will come in. better strategy than that. And then Sam can develop that strategy, have a plan based on that strategy, and then he’s going to have to manage his emotions when the same urge comes up, because it will, right?
Because that’s his pattern. But patterns can be changed. In human, there’s a, you have much more agency over your own patterns than you do over the markets. That’s the good thing.
[00:55:24] Krzysztof: There’s another question we got from our patrons and this is, I love this one. he says, my wife tells me, is telling me to sell our stocks and he likes sleeping well at night and still waking up in the morning, for many people investing in joint affair, how would you counsel? I suppose investors that are not fully in control of these decisions, but have to negotiate a safe family [00:56:00] unit.
[00:56:00] Zoe: Yeah, absolutely. And this comes down to values, I think, and what’s important and, really thinking through, and this will be different for different people, but what is important here. this is about, I’m not a couples counsellor, but this is about communication, isn’t it?
And making sure that you’re on the same page in terms of what’s happening and communicating about, this is why I’m doing it. And here’s the values for why I’m trying to build. Something for our future. And this is my strategy behind it. So sometimes that can help of just being a little bit more open, a little bit more, communicating more clearly, but it does come down to values because there will be a point at which somebody will value.
Family will maybe tip the balance. So somebody who doesn’t have a wife, saying those things may, be able to hold out longer. than somebody who’s getting a lot of pressure at home and it’s causing a lot of [00:57:00] fights. it may be that actually they do need to value that family more, but that’s a personal choice, right?
But again, it’s being aware and it’s being conscious and not just sleepwalking into something and then feeling resentful because feeling like you’re being forced to do something, then you’re Your locus of control is being put at external, it’s like blaming my wife or blaming external markets for what’s happening here.
And you want to be really thinking about being very conscious about why you’re making decisions and what’s happening for you. And having that sort of internal locus of control that you, have agency over that. but that comes down to a personal choice of who, what do you want? What, values do you have?
And again, we’re back to risk, I think, there too. Does that answer your question, Krzysztof?
[00:57:50] Krzysztof: Yeah. Thanks.
[00:57:51] Luke: So we’ve explored like a whole bunch of tools that investors can use. and, one thing you and I were [00:58:00] chatting about. the other day Zoe was the benefit of having a plan, and I think I said, at times like this, I feel like I’m a master of my emotions. If when something happens in the market, I can respond to it rather than reacting to it and doing something very quickly.
And so I wonder if you have any thoughts on like the benefits of having a plan and having. Some foresight and being quite diligent and structured about the actions you’re proposing to take.
[00:58:29] Zoe: Yeah, absolutely. I think, going back to Steve Peter’s work and the chimp paradox, he would say the chimp likes plan, right? The chimp likes to have a bit of a, make a bit of noise and let the emotions out. But then it’s what’s the plan here? You need to have a plan to be able to move forward.
And plans I think are really important because they help you usually for when you’re in a wise, calm mind, think about your values, think about why you’re doing something, feel like you know where you’re going. And decisions that are thought through [00:59:00] sensibly and according to the data.
it’s not from a hot mind place. It’s from a cool mind. we’re looking at the data, we’re deciding a strategy and the plan allows us to stick to it. So I think that creates resilience. It protects you against, shocks and emotion based thinking based on, Oh my God, what’s happened overnight?
That can be really stressful if you’re getting buffeted around by that. So it keeps you in that wise mind place. But I guess, and defer to you here, I guess it’s important to have a plan that allows for some flexibility, and some adjustment along the way, perhaps rather than being too rigidly stuck in it.
I don’t know.
[00:59:37] Luke: No, that’s exactly right. And I’ve talked about it in previous episodes, but something I try and be diligent about is if there’s something I want to do, like maybe I’m thinking about buying something or selling something or trimming, doing some portfolio action, I’ll try not to do that straight away. I’ll literally put it in a to do list and then I’ll just come back and reflect on it.
And sometimes it will still seem like a good [01:00:00] idea after it’s been cogitating for a month and I’ll act on it. And sometimes I’ll realize maybe that was an emotionally driven decision Or maybe things changed, the context changed a little bit, and that’s no longer the right thing to do. But just forcing myself to take a breath.
So I suppose that’s a different, it’s another kind of plan, right? It’s mapping out the things we might do, but then giving ourselves to reflect on them before we snap into action.
[01:00:25] Krzysztof: That’s something we just did together on our podcast last patron. I wanted to buy more of a particular company. And I said, wait, let me take advantage of, somebody that I trust around these decisions. So I, we talked about this on our podcast. We made a poll on our Patreon page, right?
Just the process, just that process. I can vouch with a hundred percent truthfulness and honesty. Feels good because as long as you trust the people which you know That’s a [01:01:00] given I suppose between luke and myself and our community it’s not even so much about the end point decision.
It’s that I took the correct steps And notice that there’s a complex decision to be made
[01:01:13] Luke: And the most incredible thing there was you actually took our advice, which I was shocked about.
[01:01:18] Krzysztof: can you read it?
[01:01:22] Luke: so, we, this has been a fascinating conversation and we should probably think about bringing it to a close, but before we do, if an investor is feeling a bit. overwhelmed, and maybe, particularly right now, they might’ve felt, they’ve made a few mistakes. Maybe they’ve, their portfolio has suffered.
Is there any advice you’d have for them?
[01:01:43] Zoe: good question. So I think the first thing is to probably give some space to how they’re feeling, right? So really, and there’s different ways you can do that. So you can use something like there’s a feelings wheel that is one of my favorite things where you like, we call it name it to tame it.
So it is based in [01:02:00] science. So when you’re. When you’re feeling very overwhelmed, when you’re feeling very stressed, if you can name that feeling, it actually brings back on board the thinking parts of your brain and you’re just naming it. So I’m feeling overwhelmed. What else? Stressed. I’m feeling anxious.
I’m feeling worried. And just naming it to tame it can really help to settle things down. The other thing you can do is write it out. So again, going back to what you were saying before about Not acting on it straight away. So you might be wanting having this urge to adjust things, but really you wanting to just, come from a cool mind place.
So you, you need to give that hot stuff a bit of space. So giving it a bit of space by naming it, to tame it, by writing it out. by doing that bit of practice that we did earlier about, what am I feeling, where am I feeling my body going for a walk, doing all the things that help you to be a little bit less stressed.
Cause if we’re coming, if we’re reducing our stress. We’ve got more space to respond rather than react. And I think what’s really important, and that’s [01:03:00] come out from your conversation, is having people you can speak to about this stuff. Because if it’s all in your head, it tends to just get pretty overwhelming pretty quickly.
We all need people that we can speak to if we’re feeling stressed. Or we’re feeling worried about something and in the investment space you need to speak to people who have been no point really in coming to speak to me. I could help you with your emotional reaction to it but if you’re looking for advice you need to come and speak to people who know about that and that would be, people in your community.
So being able to get some of that wiser, more sage advice, would be a sensible step forward, rather than just running around, with that, and then thinking about, what do you want to do with this? Then you’ve got some decisions to be made, but you’ve already talked about how you might go about , making a decision from that wise mind place, which is what we’re all seeking to come back to all the time, including myself.
[01:03:56] Krzysztof: Wonderful. Zoe, are there any specific, [01:04:00] resources you’d like to point our listeners to?
[01:04:03] Zoe: So I think that probably, the Steve Peters book, seeing as we’ve talked about them quite a lot, the Steve Peters book, so Chimp Paradox, and also the, his latest one, which is, I think, Better, which is Path Through the Jungle, that would be really good. we mentioned Atomic Habits as a book as well to try and cultivate some, good habits.
There’s some audios on my website. If anybody’s interested in getting some more mindfulness audios, so that’s just zoe ross. com. R O double S is my surname. com. And I am inspired by you. I am, revitalizing my own podcast. So I’m I have a podcast called the mental well being podcast that has laid dormant for a while.
So I am going to get that back underway. So if anyone’s interested in learning more, then you will find that again on my website. and then the other, there’s quite a few apps around, mindfulness. So Headspace is a good place to start on that [01:05:00] one would be my other recommendation.
[01:05:02] Luke: That’s, some really good practical advice that is very timely right now. who knows what the future holds, but maybe by reflecting on some of the practices and the things we’ve talked about today, whether it’s more chaos or we can return to stability, but at least, be mindful investors and act a bit more structured with a plan diligently, and hopefully with friends.
In the Wall Street wildlife, Patreon community or on X, you can find Krzysztof and I all over the social networks. And if you do want to talk non investing, if you do want to talk about, like just getting control of your emotions, then yeah, absolutely go check out Zoe’s material at zoeross. com. And we’ll put a link to all of that in the show notes today.
[01:05:49] Krzysztof: What a pleasure it was speaking with you, Zoe, help me, in the future deal with this, [01:06:00] With this badger creature, badger, guinea pig, amalgam that I’m dealing with. It would be, wonderful to follow up in, as the years and months, unfold. consider yourself, our door’s open to you.
[01:06:15] Zoe: Oh, thank you so much. And likewise, it’s been an absolute pleasure. Thanks very much for the invitation. It’s been great to speak to you both.
[01:06:22] Luke: Fabulous. this has been Wall Street Wildlife. I hope you enjoyed this week’s episode. We always end with this question. Are you ready to become a beast of an investor?
[01:06:31] Krzysztof: Your journey starts here. Rawr! [01:07:00]
